Coffee Stories: Amy Launder on Smart Therapy & Gaslighting

This week the lovely Amy Launder - a psychotherapist, psychological coach and writer - helps us define some terms that often get thrown around without much clarity, yet can have devastating impacts on those who have experienced them. So ** trigger warning ** grab a cuppa, and let’s talk therapy, gaslighting, emotional abuse, narcissism and why toxic friendships need to be highlighted as well.

And if you want more information, or are either experiencing or witnessing someone else experience any form of emotional (or otherwise) abuse, there are also links to a number of helplines and organisations at the bottom who can provide support.

Finally, if you might be looking to start your journey with therapy or simply want to have a more in depth chat, you can find Amy via her website or her instagram (links at bottom of the interview).

This was an incredibly important topic to cover for me personally, having witnessed circumstances involving all these terms both up close and through close friends experiencing them. And I think one huge piece of the puzzle (that I hope is becoming more obvious with the rise of social media, online forums and the ability to connect more openly, and at times anonymously) is the understanding that abusive or toxic relationships (/ circumstances) do NOT require physical confrontation to be very real. A bruise is not what defines them. And there is support and help available.

Hello and thank you so much for taking part! Could you start by briefly introducing yourself and what you do?

Yeah, of course. I'm a psychotherapist and psychological coach. I qualified in 2017, and then I started in private practice. I also work in a service that deals with NHS clients and I help manage the counsellors who are on their training placements there. So helping them get started, which I find really, really fun.

So, yeah, that's kind of me.

So, next up, the incredibly broad question - How would you define ‘Therapy’? I ask because there seems to still be a lot of confusion around what attending therapy might entail, and a lot of fear or hesitancy that might cause people to avoid booking in.

So, for me - and quite broadly - therapy is a space for people once a week, or however often you have it, that is just for you. There's no judgment, there are no kind of preconceived ideas of what it is that you're going through and no advice given, which can throw people sometimes. Cause sometimes that's what they want.

And a lot of people say “well, what's so different about going to talk to your friends or your family members”, and the difference is that friends and family members are invested in your life. In a good way or a bad way.

It depends on the person, but while obviously a therapist wants what’s best for you, they also don’t have their own investment in your life in that same way (as friends / family members would).

So, if you're going through a big decision, the outcome doesn't kind of matter to the therapist in the same way, it won't impact the therapist life, whereas a friend or family member… If you're thinking about let's say leaving your job… A partner might be really supportive, but also thinking “but we need the money”, that kind of thing.

Having that unbiased support can have a huge impact. And it can be really tough when you are too close to offer the right support as well. I can imagine there have been quite a few conversations amongst couples or partners throughout lockdown where they are both needing that support but might not have enough left over themselves to offer it.

I’ve had a lot of clients starting during lockdown who have said “my partner told me they can’t handle this anymore, I need to talk to someone else!”

I actually found you after reading an article you had written about emotional abuse and narcissistic parental-relationships, and I was hoping to chat a bit more about these terms specifically, as well as the notion of ‘gaslighting’.

Could you very briefly (and broadly) help define the terms ‘gaslighting’ as well as ‘narcissism’?

Of course. I also found it very confusing when I started researching it and writing about it. But when you take it back to where the terms best came from it suddenly clicks and is much clearer.

Gaslighting is a term that was based on a play written in the 1930s called ‘Gaslight’ by Patrick Hamilton.

In the play the husband dims the gas light so that the flame drops down a little bit each time, and then proceeded to convince his wife that she's making it up, that the light hasn't changed.

So, when you think about it like that, it is the core of gaslighting. It is purposefully - or not - making someone think that they're going crazy.

And I say purposefully or not, because anyone can do it by accident.

It can be something like for example if you really hate conflict but you're really angry at someone, and you are kind of stomping around the house. And the other person says “are you angry” and you say “No!”. They’re going to say “But you LOOK angry” and think so am I making this up? So, it can be accidental as well.

Then narcissism again, if you take it back to where the term first came from, is based on the Greek myth of Narcissus who fell in love with his own reflection.

So basically, it’s on a spectrum and everyone is somewhere on that spectrum but then there are the people who have Narcissistic Personality Disorder*.

But it’s essentially being overly obsessed with yourself or having an inflated sense of importance. Um, you know, thinking the world is revolving around You. But then underneath all of this is a real sense of low self-esteem. So, any little poke or prod or minor criticism is shattering to that person.

Because this tends to cause some confusion both amidst those impacted (is it really that bad, there aren’t bruises, etc) and those hearing stories from loved ones and trying to understand – would you also mind chatting a bit about what constitutes ‘Emotional Abuse’?

Of course. So, it encompasses gaslighting and narcissism, you know, but it's things like threatening or belittling the other person, making them feel really bad about themselves, making them question themselves…

For example, things like threatening someone with deportation. You know, “if you leave me, I'll get you deported” if they're not from the country. Um, or, you know, financial abuse as well kind of comes into it sometimes. So, controlling all the money and not letting them have access to it or, you know, being really controlling about, or checking, what the other person is spending as well.

Things like if the person has a job, but the money might not actually be going to them, it might be going to the partner, or the parents, or whoever else it might be.

Um, so yeah, just things like that. And just, if you're in a relationship and you're feeling like you're walking on eggshells around them all the time. Sometimes it happens, you know, if you've been in an argument and you want to make up in a healthy relationship, but if it's quite a constant thing that you're walking on eggshells around your partner or your parent or whoever else it might be, that's probably a sign that something's not quite right.

If you're having to change your behaviour constantly, that's a sign that something's not quite right.* (see bottom of post for links to resources where you can find more information and access support if needed)

I actually mentioned this interview was coming up to some friends to see if anyone had any pressing questions, and one of the main ones that came back was around what types of links can be found between childhood abandonment and staying in relationships that are, for all intents and purposes, toxic or at the end of the spectrum emotionally abusive?

For me it always comes back to this quote - which I can't remember where it's from, I think it's from a movie - that says “we accept the love we think we deserve.”

We kind of gravitate towards what's comfortable for us, what's well known to us. If you've grown up in a really hectic household, or an abusive household, or an emotionally manipulative household, you kind of can see that as “oh, that is love, it's passionate, it’s exciting”. They were fighting or making up all the time and all of this stuff…

Having a relationship when you then meet a person that loves you so much and they never argue with you, it doesn't feel like love, it feels boring.

So, people tend to kind of gravitate towards what they know and how they think that they should be treated.

That flip-side is interesting as well, the hesitancy to accept that a healthy or positive relationships can in fact just be that, to the extent that we perhaps put up barriers or go around expecting the other shoe to drop…

Yeah, definitely. So, kind of being quite suspicious in questioning, there must be something wrong, but I guess not.

And that can also be that, um, intense behaviour, of like thinking they must be doing something wrong, so I should check that phone or I should follow them when they're leaving the house or whatever. And then it, it's kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy sometimes, it confirms what you already believe about yourself.

If someone out there is considering seeking support or help, in the form of for example chatting to a therapist like yourself, but might be worried about the potential implications in terms of sharing their experiences to someone else and that somehow getting back to the partner / family member / friend / whoever… My understanding has always been that therapy is to be considered a safe space to share, and that client confidentiality is a key component of that. Would you mind just clarifying that?

Yes of course. So, it is pretty difficult as a therapist, but there is that confidentiality and also the Mental Capacity Act, which is, you know, you have the capacity to make your own decisions, even if I don't agree with them.

I have worked with people, more so in the NHS, where they are in abusive relationships that don't want to leave, and you can't force someone to leave.

A therapist would never go and knock on someone's door or (under normal circumstances) break confidentiality. But it depends on the level of risk. I mean, you can break confidentiality and talk to someone's GP if there was an imminent concern for their safety.

Of course, and to be clear that would be for imminent concern for their safety or others in their vicinity, so really extreme circumstances, but in general it’s important to understand therapy is a safe space.

Yes, definitely.

In terms of witnessing this type of behaviour impacting a friend/ family member / loved one… It can obviously be a very complex situation to find oneself in and I’m sure a lot of people are hesitant to act out of fear of causing offence, saying the wrong thing etc. But equally reaching out might make a huge difference. What are your thoughts around how to approach this?

I mean, in the first place, I would kind of say that you have to be prepared to lose the friend in the short term, because if you're going to say something, I mean, even with physical abuse, but especially emotional abuse and psychological abuse, they might not really realize that it's going on and be quite defensive of the person.

So, it can be important, and it depends on the friendship and the wider circumstances, but I think to actually say something to the friend in private, so they are aware that you are aware that something's going on. But then to just kind of keep the lines of communication open, so that they know you're still there for them, even if they've not left the relationship.

It can be really difficult, especially with gaslighting and emotional abuse where the survivor or the victim can feel very protective of the person. They can feel like they're going to be the one to fix them, or they're going to be the one to help them.

Um, because the abuser can be really clever, and sometimes say things like “no one else understands me. You're the only person that understands me. No one else gets me, no one else loves me.”

And so, if someone then comes in and accuses them of something... The partner is going to think “yeah, they’re right, no one else understands, I understand you, I can fix you.”

So it can be really difficult, but make sure that you as a friend are always there, so that when the penny drops they've got somewhere to go, because one of the abusers biggest tools is going to be isolating.

I also wanted to briefly touch on the common narrative of how we often reference romantic partnerships or family relationships in these conversations, but talk far less about toxic friendships that veer into either emotional abuse or gaslighting which in turn can be quite difficult to untangle yourself from due to the stigmas attached. I.e. it is perfectly acceptable to leave a partner who is toxic or abusive, but leaving a friendship can often be frowned upon.

What are your thoughts around this?

Yeah, interestingly I actually just wrote something about this, gaslighting in friendships, a couple of weeks ago, because I haven't really seen too much about it but I have had clients who have talked about it before.

And you're right. It can be so much harder to remove yourself from it because when it's a relationship, you can remove yourself from that relationship. And the rest of your life is still there. But removing yourself from the friendship group, you might possibly lose all of your friends. And that can be quite scary.

And very often the toxic friend is really charismatic and really powerful in your friendship group. And they're right in the middle and everyone wants to be their friends. So, if you then distance yourself or confront that person you're likely to lose some of the other people in the friendship group as well until they then realize what's going on.

So, it might take them a while, or for someone else to then realize that that person is also toxic. And then they'll come back to you.

Another common issue – both in the media coverage, but also when chatting to a lot of friends who might not have those experiences or be aware of those types of circumstances – is this notion of “But why didn’t they just leave?” The idea that surely if someone is treating you badly, you simply just get up and go.

Is there something around how the media approaches that which you hope might change, or do you have any thoughts on how we could talk to people around why it’s not that straightforward?

Yeah. And interestingly, again, I actually saw an interview with the musician FKA Twigs where someone asked her… They literally said “I hate this question, but why didn't you walk away?” And she said that she's refusing to answer that question anymore, because it shouldn't be a case of why didn't I walk away.

It should be a case of why did he hold me hostage with emotional abuse?

And she mentioned the fact that it was so bad that I couldn't walk away as well. And there's a really interesting analogy of the boiling frog. Which actually people thought it was scientifically the case, and it's been proven wrong, but the analogy still works, I guess… Which is the idea that if you put a frog in a pot of water and then slowly boil it, it will boil alive. But if you put a frog in boiling water, they'll jump out.

So it's this idea of when it's a really slow build we don't realize what's going on. And people who are abusive are also really good at pulling people back into the cycles of abuse.

So, you go through the honeymoon period when you first get together and everything's really lovely. And then things start creeping up. So it's like tension building. They started walking on eggshells, maybe little arguments here and there, then there's an incident. And then there is the apology, and then there's the honeymoon stage again. And the “I'll never do that again. And I'll treat you really well.” and all this stuff…

And then it kind of keeps going round and round. The more times you go around this, the shorter the honeymoon and the apology phase and the longer the… Because they're no longer having to pretend that they're a good person. They’ve got you, at that point.

That’s really interesting, that notion of it getting shorter each time, but also that it’s a bit like the touch of a familiar drug.

And that’s really interesting as well. When are you going to get the good bit? Like the idea of gambling, it's so random that you're hooked because you never know if the next one is going to be the winner. So you keep going back thinking like this time it's going to be good.

That's it. That's it. And it just keeps spiralling.

I also wanted to briefly touch on any advice available when it comes to kids – and in particular teenagers - experiencing these types of behaviours - especially if or when they stem from caregivers or trusted people in their constant vicinity - what can they do to inform themselves and seek support or help?

Yeah, definitely. I mean, I would say one of the best places would be school. And most schools have good services nowadays.

I mean, I worked with place-to-be for about a year in a primary school. And all schools have safeguarding teams like that, and some have in-house counsellors and stuff for the kids. So that's always a good place to start. And even if they don't have the in-house counsellors, the teachers will be trained on this stuff. They'll know what to do, who to take it to and things.

So that's always a good place to start. And friends’ families, if you feel comfortable with them.

And also, just that it's kind of when you realise that, when you're a teenager, because you start seeing how friend’s families operate. So, you then you see how yours is not quite the same as other people's and your friends are much more comfortable at home maybe, so you can kind of start to see and start to put boundaries for yourself.

And then it's, you know, moving up, going to university, starting living with friends or whatever. You can then start to distance yourself a little bit from your family. It doesn't necessarily mean cutting them off. Some people do some people don't, but it's having that emotional distance and being able to put boundaries in and not be there all the time, not be available to be manipulated all the time, to separate yourself and to keep yourself at a safe distance.

On that note of seeking support… Could you tell us a bit more about your services, and how someone could access them if they wanted to have a chat?

So , as a therapist, you can see me on AmyLaunder.com and on Instagram. So you can come and chat to me on Instagram (@amylaundertherapies), or leave a message on my website if you want to start working together.

Then if you're a therapist or a budding therapist and you want to learn more about that, I also have a website called Smart therapy ltd, and Instagram, which is all about starting private-practice and things like that. So, it depends what you're after. I’ve also just launched The Private Practice School over on that website which is aimed at coaching therapists who want to start their own private practice.

But, I tend to work generally… It's just so happened, I think because people can see roughly how old I am on my website, that I tend to end up working with (a lot of) twenties to thirties or twenties to forties and stuff like that. Um, and it just so happens that a lot of my clients, do bring issues with family members, or mothers especially. So, just by coincidence it has happened that way, but, you know, whatever the clients want to bring is fine with me.

Q U I C K F I R E

How do you take your coffee?

Oat milk latte (or made at home its frothed oat milk with two sugars)

Currently watching…

American Horror Story, Friends (always on the go), and The Sinner

Currently listening to….

Podcasts wise, I’m always listening to Get Lit with Becki Rabin, Psychologists off the clock, Jay Shetty’s On Purpose Podcast.

If someone out there wanted to study psychology or move into that field of work, what would your advice or top tip be?

To talk to someone who is already working in the field. There are so many areas of psychology and so many avenues into each area, that it can be a little confusing. I’d definitely recommend approaching someone on social media or via their website to ask them a few questions or offer to buy them a coffee in exchange!

What is the best part of your job?

That moment when something clicks for a client. There is this look that client’s get in their eyes when something suddenly makes sense, or they’ve made a connection between something that’s happened in the past and what’s happening for them now. It’s amazing to watch.

If you want to learn more about Amy’s services, have a look below:

www.amylaunder.com/

www.smarttherapyltd.com

And if you are looking for more information regarding any of the topics above you can have a look at:

Defining Emotional Abuse

Defining Narcissism

Defining Gaslighting