Coffee Stories: The Mumologist (aka Emma Svanberg)
Emma Svanberg (aka the Mumologist)
For the very first Coffee Stories interview, I am so pleased to be able to feature The Mumologist - aka Emma Svanberg, a Clinical Psychologist specialising in pregnancy and the perinatal period, an author, a campaigner for birth-rights, and the creator of The Village (an online parenting community).
I chatted to Emma back in the spring of 2020, during our first UK lock-down, as part of a documentary project around maternal mental health. Sadly due to a lot of reasons (and just 2020 in general) this project remains on-hold, however the topic remains incredibly relevant as we sit here in our third lockdown, with the schools shut once more and mama’s (and everyone) slowly hitting their walls.
So please, enjoy our very first interview in the Coffee Stories series! Oh and for the record, we WERE both drinking coffees. A virtual one, but nonetheless (thank you Zoom).
Q. Hello! Welcome and thank you for taking the time to be a part of this! Would you like to start by introducing yourself?
Hi! Of course, just gonna grab my coffee!
I’m Emma Svanberg! I am a clinical psychologist and I specialise in the perinatal period, so what that means is that I work with mums, dads and families around pregnancy, birth and the early years of parenthood.
I also write, and wrote a book called ‘Why Birth Trauma Matters’ which came out last year. I also co-founded a foundation called ‘Make Birth Better’ which is dedicated to raising awareness around birth trauma and the impact of this.
So I do a lot of different things, but the majority of the time I work clinically with people, now online, supporting them on their journey through parenthood.
Q. Could you tell us a bit about how all of this work has changed during this strange period?
I think a lot of the work I did before… well I started a blog around nine years ago. When I was working in primary care and perinatal services – and in those days it was in children centres – you would hear the same sort of stories coming up again and again for mums. And it just felt like such an important part of the work to normalise those stories.
So a lot of the work we were doing at the time was around bringing together mostly mums in face-to-face groups, and I started a blog after that … Because I was thinking gosh it would just be so helpful if more people knew about this, and that actually you are NOT going through it alone.
Over time that has become more work on social media… I started to be more active on Facebook and Instagram, and through that I also started this online community called ‘The Village’ . And actually that has become a really big part of my work since going into lockdown.
The Village had always been a part of my work – and it’s something I do for free, it’s something that I feel is really important, to have those online communities… Since lockdown it just felt like that was going to be needed more than ever. And just using social media to just raise awareness of… you know… the normal things that all parents are going through. The things where everyone might be thinking “Is everyone else feeling like this? Is everyone else struggling as much as I am? Are other children behaving as bonkers as mine are right now”?
You know, just being able to have those conversations that enable people to know they aren’t going through it alone, and get support if they need it.
It feels more important to be able to facilitate those conversations. And I’m really lucky because I already did some online work with clients so that has just continued and grown, although I do miss sitting in a room with people… Because it’s such a different feeling, sitting in a room with people as opposed to talking online.
But, in many ways yes, my work has expanded in this period. Which I feel grateful for, in terms of having that opportunity, continuing to support people, as it isn’t the case for everyone.
Q. Something that will likely (hopefully) continue after this time too. Support is so vital, but frequently lacking, especially as we live further away from each other and perhaps do not have that easy access to our immediate physical communities.
How can you find the village on FB?
It’s on Facebook – search for ‘The Village Parenting Community’ and you can find me on Instagram (@mumologist) where I often chat about perinatal mental health.
Q.Let’s talk about myth-busting, as you did a post around this. What parenthood / mamahood myths would you most want to bust?
There are SO many myths that I want to bust around motherhood!
One of the key parts of my job is just… You know, my interest has often been around systemic models, around how we understand things. In systemic theory the idea is that we don’t exist in a vacuum, we are influenced by the stories we hear. And they might be stories from our families, or from society around us, and from our local communities…
And there are SO many stories we hear about motherhood, and actually when we become mothers ourselves we often realise these were not grounded in reality. There is actually a brilliant book written by Paula Nicolson – back in the 90s – on postnatal depression. She talks about the double myth – that motherhood is natural, and the pinnacle of femininity. So, there is this idea that motherhood is really intensely valued.
But then there is also the reality that women actually experience, which is often that as they become mothers they don’t feel valued at all. And because we have that myth - that motherhood is this pinnacle of achievement - we then feel that we can’t complain about how we are feeling.
So I think that would be my number one myth. The idea that motherhood is this natural, easy, identity that we will just fall into without any kind of resistance or ambivalence on our part. And I think because of that myth, and because it so frequently perpetuated in the stories we read, and just thinking about mainstream media and how mothers are often presented, we then really end up feeling like we can’t question this identity shift that we go through.
So there ends up being this feeling not just that we can’t complain, but that we are supposed to have found it much easier and just fallen into it. So, if we do complain, it’s our fault, it’s our problem. And I think that if we were to be able to really just look at this story, this experience, and question it, and look at – well, what is the reality for most women, we might find that it is often really the opposite of that.
That even though motherhood has been held up as this thing to aspire to, once you get there you might feel cheated. Like this was not what I signed up to, or what I expected. And unless we talk about it, what ends up happening with lots of women is that we internalise that feeling. So that sense of “Well this isn’t how I’m meant to be feeling” then becomes our sense of failure. That must be my fault, maybe I just wasn’t cut out to be a mum. Rather than, well maybe that myth I was being sold all along actually wasn’t true.
Q. A very important point, and one of the biggest things from my first year of motherhood too. It took me around six months to realise that the expectation v reality was very different. And the idea that you are either totally fine or totally not fine – no in between… But actually the grey area is huge. And you can be fine one day and not the next.
Yes, and even just moment by moment too.
You can feel great one hour, and then maybe baby cries or your toddler has a tantrum in the middle of the shop and you might feel worse than you’ve ever felt before. And we are also faced with real extremes of emotion from our children too, and it can be a real rollercoaster to go along with, but if we don’t talk about this… If the expectation is just calm swans on top of the lake, then there won’t be any emotional validation for us. And we end up just internalising that feeling of not coping.
Q. A feeling that currently feels heightened – you are at home but are still expected to do all the roles, to be fine, to keep going, to not complain. That first-year feeling has been heightened for me and my friends with toddlers now during the pandemic and the lockdowns. And perhaps there’s a slight difference between moms and dads too. Any thoughts or advice around that?
So a lot of really big topics here, all in one go…
There is the one to pick up on, of How do you deal with the relentlessness of the reality of child-rearing when we don’t have those strategies or access to that network of support that maybe we had worked really hard to build up?
You know, often for parents in that first year - and mums in particular who are still often the primary caregiver in that period- they often go through that transitional period where they start off trying to do it all on their own.
Then maybe they realise they can’t do it all on their own. Then maybe there is a kind of period of adjustment to realising that, maybe we do need some support. Then the adjustment to what that might look like for me… And there might be some disappointment there of realising it doesn’t look the way you might have wanted.
And often people have worked really hard to build up these systems of support, and when they get to toddlerhood for example… A couple of years in, having worked up some strategies and systems that have worked for you, and so you now have a loss there of those support systems.
And then on top of that you might have started to re-discover your life outside of motherhood as well.
Maybe you’ve gone back to work, maybe working full time, maybe there are loads of other pressures too going on, now you are out of that really intense mothering of that first year.
And that might now be the case for a lot of people, if they were out of maternity leave and perhaps not staying at home, they are actually all of a sudden in this position where… Not only are they back at home with small children – which in itself for many people can be quite a difficult place to be in, which I’ll come back to – but then also those additional pressures.
So there is this kind of having to exist again ‘in the here and now’, being stuck in this position which can feel very trapping for people.
And you know, again if you think about myths and narratives… There is this kind of narrative around it – and I’m not entirely sure where it’s come from - that we should just really be relishing this time, that this is an opportunity to be with our children, that we are going to bond and be doing crafts with them… And it just shows how pervasive that myth and narrative is, that mothering and parenting is easy. When actually the reality is that for many people this is way more relentless than it has EVER been before.
The pressure – the practical pressure - is up for so many people, and then let’s just chuck in again that narrative that you are supposed to be enjoying every minute. So even more pressure, when actually it feels like… When this can be really hard, when it can feel like “I am really struggling with this”.
And then actually, you can add on top of that, I think for many people, they might have had a difficult start to their maternity experience…
Whether they might have had postnatal anxiety, birth trauma, if they have had any mental health problems... For many people you know that passes with time – perhaps they didn’t initially have very much support, and perhaps things have got a little bit easier as the baby got older, maybe things started to fall into place a bit more.
So, there might be a lot of unresolved issues there for people that they might not have had the chance to unpack. And I think… What I’m hearing from a lot of mums is that it isn’t even just that day-to-day difficulty of dealing with how relentless things can feel. But there are also then really old, really raw, emotions coming up of how it felt to be in that place before.
You know all of a sudden for example finding yourself back in that unequal relationship with your partner, all of a sudden finding yourself at home, without really knowing how you ended up there.
So I think for a lot of people, it might be bringing up these kind of unresolved emotions that they hadn’t really had the chance to manage previously.
And the other huge topic is that problem with the unequal division of household labour – which I talk to women AND men about. You know, I talk to both partners about it. But of course, with the majority of heterosexual partnerships in the west, the responsibility still often lies with the woman. And then they start to feel… Which research shows, that women still end up holding the majority of that household labour. Which again, if that is something that hasn’t been discussed and it hasn’t been resolved in your partnership, then this period can really highlight those imbalances, leaving people feeling quite exhausted but also resentful. So those are the kind of themes I’m hearing a lot from a lot of people.
Q. How do you talk to your partner about that – even if in normal circumstances you might feel like you have a fairly equal partnership it might be hard to explain now… As they didn’t perhaps go through that same experience we might have during mat-leave. How do you explain or discuss this? Bridge that gap?
First off, I think it is really important to think about what you are expecting, and what is realistic for both.
When we are feeling resentful it can be easy to project all our difficult feelings onto our partner, and feel like they are not doing anything at all, and that we are holding everything on our shoulders because we are angry and we feel really overwhelmed.
Often, because parenting IS really intense, our partners might also be feeling really overwhelmed. They might just be feeling it about different things, so I think being able to acknowledge that you are BOTH struggling with different issues… So I think that is important.
And obviously for some couples that isn’t the case, perhaps there is just a disparity there and it is just unequal. But being able to come into that conversation with some compassion for each other is always going to help. Just being aware of what they might be feeling.
And then also sticking to YOUR experience, so going into it with ‘This is how I feel’ rather than ‘You didn’t do this.” Because when you start to talk about your experience, it invites them to do the same. Both of you can share what is going on with you, and then from the sharing you can reach a point where you might be able to find a solution.
There is a great book called ‘Fair Play’ by an author called Eve Rodsky, and she has some really great, very practical tips on how to have those kinds of conversations with your partner. She even has a kind of game you can play with your partner, where you share out responsibilities.
And it is also thinking about what is going to work for you… Because if one of you Is working Full time and one of you is working part-time, of course there are going to be disparities there. But… You know, thinking about your background, and how equal you expect your relationship to be, what you saw with your own parents or care-givers and how those relationships looked… It all comes into it. So being able to have those conversations and being able to have those expectations going in of what you both need from each other or are expecting.
But also really being aware that this is NOT normal circumstances, that everyone is in survival mode. So thinking about how you can come together to survive as a team. And maybe now is not the time to make huge changes, or you know to think about the state of your relationship long-term. But just to think about how do we come together to get through this bit, and all those fundamental questions can be tackled when things are a bit calmer.
It is also important to say we ARE in a state of stress. Even if we don’t feel like it all the time, we are in a really extreme state of stress. You know, we are in threat-mode. We are not feeling particularly well contained, any of us. And what that results in is that we are high-adrenaline, we are not thinking very clearly. We are much more likely to be irritable, much more likely to forget things. These are all those things to just bear in mind, that everybody is in that position.
So this isn’t perhaps the time to have these real deep and meaningful conversations, but instead focus on how you come together and work together just to survive in a way that feels as best as you can.
Q. Absolutely survival mode. Now, let’s chat about birth-trauma. It doesn’t really get enough focus, yet it is such a huge topic. Can you talk a bit about the resources you have co-founded and your work around this, and any general thoughts especially now with the high-intensity circumstances for women going through this given the pandemic.
So I think if you are pregnant at the moment it is a really anxious time. You might have these plans that you are being made to change, especially if you have had a traumatic previous experience. You know, we can work really hard if we have had a previously traumatic experience to think about what would make us feel safe this time around. Then all of a sudden we are in this position where we don’t feel very safe, and it would be strange if that didn’t raise our anxiety.
But I think it is really important to know that services are still there, and that if you are feeling anxious, midwives do still want to hear from you. And – you know I’ve heard from quite a lot of people around that sense of not wanting to add burdens onto the NHS… But you know, the NHS is there still, functioning as it did, and doing a lot online or over the phone too. And of course it is intensely overstretched, but what I am also hearing from a lot of women is that midwives are being so incredibly supportive, and you know being so aware that because perhaps partners aren’t going to be as available as they would normally have been, I’ve heard lots of examples of midwives really stepping into that role to make sure that women are feeling really well supported at this time.
So I think to just offer that kind of reassurance that your midwife is still there to offer that kind of support. And people know that this is a high anxiety time for pregnant women and birthing people.
And there are loads of resources online (see links at the bottom of the page). There is updated guidance from the RCOG around what you can expect. So I would encourage people to have a look there. And also if you are pregnant, your vulnerabilities around Covid – there is a lot of guidance around that there.
And at Make Birth Better we have a lot of information on our website. We have some crib sheets on there around what birth trauma is which might be helpful, along with information for both those who are pregnant at the moment, and another section for maternity staff who are also needing support at the moment.
One of the things that is really difficult, if you’ve had a previously traumatic birth – so not necessarily if you are pregnant at the moment – but if you have had a previous trauma, is that some of those services have been taken away. So we are hearing about places where NHS debriefing services have been stopped. Sometimes people might have waited many months to have an opportunity to talk about their birth story, and that is a really difficult position to be left in, just kind of holding onto that.
And also, because of the circumstances we are in, we are more anxious… So if you have had a previous trauma, it is more likely that this might be triggered again. You know, that you might be in a state of high anxiety, and if it is hard to access a service then again you are left just holding onto that trauma.
There are things you can do just to help manage those symptoms, just yourself at home if you are struggling to access that support. And I would urge people – if they are feeling those anxieties much more than they feel they can cope with or noticing those symptoms much more, then they should still get in touch with their GP or their health visitor, and ask for a referral.
And we have loads of advice on how to seek help on the Make Birth Better website.
But one really quick thing that anyone can do is a grounding technique – if you want to have a google for grounding techniques there are loads of little ways that you can let your body know in this moment that you are safe, that kind of switches off that fight or flight response that people can be left with if they’ve had a trauma, and just focus on that rest and digest instead and let your body know that you are safe.
So there are things we can do ourselves, but I think it is so important to acknowledge that it IS a really difficult time, and that it is to be expected that there will be an emotional fallout from that.
Q. And I hope people also can keep finding those resources after all this too, because it is so important to have access, to share those stories….
Absolutely, and again like we said kind of normalising those experiences. And of course some of those experiences shouldn’t be normalised – you know, we have examples where people are left traumatised because they’ve been through experiences that in our view should never have happened.
At Make Birth Better we actually have a campaign called ‘Think Trauma Now’, because we feel that we would like people to be talking about this, and thinking about this kind of trauma that might be happening at the moment, so if people would like to get involved please do. You can find more on the website and Instagram.
Q. Absolutely! From experience, so many of those conversations weren’t really always even taking place afterwards, so it is so important having these resources…
Yes, it is sadly not uncommon.
Q. Anything else you want to add?
Just a reminder as we’ve said… Just to acknowledge that this is really hard. This is a hard time, and it is okay if you are struggling. And if you are really struggling, then please do seek support. But this is NOT a normal circumstance. And if you are struggling, then that is to be expected. And it is something that we can accept for the time being.
Thank you so much for taking part! It’s been a joy!
If YOU are struggling in any capacity, please consider reaching out to your GP, and know there are resources out there to offer support.
IMPORTANT LINKS:
Emma’s Book Why Birth Trauma Matters can be found here